[This is the original unedited interview and is being run here exclusively for the Fans of Norbert Singer. "ec" refers to European Car magazine]
continued from page 1...
Singer: It was clear for this model that it had to be a four valve water cooled head engine. And, therefore, it was also clear we had to put in some water radiators to cool it down. It gave us a complete new concept.
Singer: Yes it was, it was the first four valve engine which we raced for the 2.1 liter was a two valve. The four valve was later used in the 956 and 962. In principle, it was clear we would run a four valve engine. And after it was developed, Moby Dick was the first car to use the four valve.
ec: When was Moby Dick's first test?
Singer: Actually, I don't remember. I'll have to look in the notes but I think we had a shakedown at Weissach and then the real testing began at Paul Ricard. (a race circuit in the south of France)
ec: Jurgen Barth says he was first to drive Moby Dick and he was not really prepared for the transition from driving a regular 935 to the new car.
Singer: Yes, Barth said he had to hold the steering wheel with both hands because of the power. But the handling was so much better because the weight was centered.
ec: It's on record that when Helmut Bott first saw the completed car he had made the comment, I'm not sure if this legal; and you said, well, it is by their rules. Was that something that was of great concern to management at that time ?
Singer: There was a little bit of concern for them because they see that we spend a lot of money and then if we come to the races and they say it's illegal. Of course, this is quite a big fear that they had. But I was quite sure this is legal because I was at the meeting and I knew what they mean and I knew what they wrote. So their meaning might have been for making a hole for exhaust pipe for front engine cars like the BMW but what they (the FIA) put on paper was quite a lot of other things which we did.
ec: When Paul Frere arrived and saw the car, you said that he was quite surprised, almost to the point of being shocked.
Singer: Yes he was really surprised about the doors. (laughs) This was the amazing thing, he came to Weissach with the President Schild from the FIA commission to make a pre-examination of the car. And I explained to him what it was and Paul Frere was also a good friend of Helmet Bott, so I explained to him what was the letter of the meeting. And at the end he said, yes okay, you are right. But what concerns him much more was the double door, this normal production door with add on piece which makes the door much wider.
ec: Which is actually kind of odd when you think about it because you had done exactly the same thing with the roof on the 935/77. You had a double rear window to raise to roof line to make for better aerodynamics. So if you have a double window, why not a double door.
Singer: Yes, so we showed him you can take off the outer skin and then he had the original door. And then I got the passport which was signed by Paul Frere with the FIA stamp on it and they left. Then the FIA working crew came together and they found, this is not legal. But Frere and Schild had said it was legal. And then we got a telex from the head of the American group and they said, it's not legal what you are doing. So that's why in Silverstone the door was cut in the first half so you could see from the outside the original door. And the front part of the door, which this was the most important aerodynamic part. The rear part was not so important. So that's why they raced in Silverstone and Le Mans with the front extension which covers the front part of the door. Then after that, the formal president of the FIA Commission, Pierre Ugeux, we received a telex from him. And he said, when the commission was presented by Paul Frere and he decided it was legal and we got the permission to run like this, then the working crew cannot turn it around. So afterwards, we got permission to have the original doors legal. But we didn't need to race anymore with these doors.
ec: So it really didn't make a lot of difference, it was just bluff to get what you wanted by giving up something that was deemed critical.
Singer: Right. (laughs) The most important part was we had with these front pieces on the doors.
ec: Speaking of the body work, the original press photos of the car, when it was just white, you had the low rear wing on it. How did you go from the low wing to the higher wing?
Singer: To make it more effective.
ec: So it was something that was purely done for the initial showing with Frere and the FIA ?
Singer: No, not really. The basic idea was to hide the wing behind the high fenders to get the focal area of the car down, without having an extra wing in the air. But it showed that it was not very efficient so we went the high wing.
ec: Which wind tunnel did you use for that?
Singer: It was the Volkswagen wind tunnel.
ec: Had you already constructed the high wing and it just wasn't on the car yet or was it born out of the work you did in the wind tunnel ?
We went back in the tunnel. And it was clear when we put it up, it would be much more effective so that was it.
ec: Had any of the Martini people seen the car before it was presented to Frere and the FIA?
Singer: No, I don't think so. Frere was already at Weissach to look at the car but it was not finished and not even painted.
ec: Do you remember when the Martini people finally saw the car and what their reaction was?
Singer: Actually I don't know really, but I know they were amused and they were happy with the car. Really, it looked very good.
ec: Well, this gets back to the amusement part. How the name Moby Dick came about. Had it been tagged that before it finally rolled a wheel out of the workshop or only after it ran ?
Singer: I think it happened when we put the car, it was still unpainted then, but when we put the fiberglass body parts on. And we moved the car out of the workshop and put it on the scale to weigh it. The first procedure is always to weigh the car so you know how close you are to the required weight. And then the car was first time on it's wheels, then we really could see how low the car was. And because it was wide and it was really very wide in the front, so it was - the name was easily found, Moby Dick. It looks like Moby Dick - wide and big.
ec: I'll bet whoever came up with the name probably doesn't remember just what they started.
Singer: Maybe I would because it was my idea.
ec: You'll go into the history books with that. When did Professor Fuhrmann finally see the car? Did he first see it only when it was completed ?
Singer: He saw it when we were building it. When you build such a prototype car, it takes 6-8 weeks or so; and he looked from time to time at the progress of the work. So he had seen the car before. But when it's jacked up so this is only one part. When it's altogether and standing on its wheels, this is another story.
ec: Being an engine man himself, obviously he was quite pleased to have the 3.2 water engine in it, wasn't he?
Singer: Yes, this was his main thinking.
ec: Back to the 3.2 for a minute, because it taken considerably longer to design and build a engine than it does a chassis, what was that engine originally made for ? Were you going to run it in a 935 regardless ? Was that the idea?
Singer: The idea was to have this 4 valve engine in any 935.
ec: So it didn't matter if it was Moby Dick or another car? Your car for 1978, the factory entry at Le Mans, was going to have the four valve motor.
Singer: That is right, whatever we came up for Le Mans would use the 3.2 four valve.
ec: Interesting as that is one of the most unique features of Moby Dick. After it was painted and arrived at Silverstone, because very few people had seen the car. Much has been made about Le Mans, but it was really Silverstone that it really shook everybody up. What was the reaction like from the press and the competitors?
Singer: From the press, you should talk to Michael Cotton, he knows.
ec: I will.
Singer: No, I think they were surprised in seeing what potential we got out of the 911. It really doesn't look like a 911. Only the doors, windows and the roof
ec: And the competitors, the usual grumbling from the privateers, I assume.
Singer: Yes, sure. Plus it was quite an unconventional car, they saw the four valve engine and they certainly didn't like that. It was quite a big step ahead.
ec: And that brings us to Le Mans. I had always heard a story that there was some talk that the ACO was not going to allow Moby Dick to run or find some technicality and that it was said that the entire factory team was going to withdraw if the car was not allowed to run.
Singer: This was only a rumor. It was never in doubt. For the car was legal and when I remember well, in these days, Le Mans was a FIA race, so there was no question. But while it was legal, I think they were not too happy about it.
ec: Did the speed of Moby Dick on the Mulsanne, was it about what you expected or had the car exceeded your calculations ?
Singer: It was what we hoped for. Moby Dick ran over 365 kph on Mulsanne. This was faster that the Renault which later won the race.
ec: It was very fast. I was there and saw it on the Mulsanne Could it have won Le Mans that year ?
Singer: Actually, no. The problem was, the bigger engine had a fuel consumption problem and we were refueling, I think, every 35 minutes. I think we had, I don't know how many, 39 or 38 pit stops. Far too many. Also the Group 6 prototypes were carrying more fuel.
ec: Aerodynamically, how did Moby Dick compare with the 936 in '78 at Le Mans, in terms of the usual CD figures?
Singer: It's hard to compare. For it was a little higher in drag because the car was bigger, but it was maybe similar in downforce, maybe just a little less. And it was just the power and the drag, I think, in these two areas. it was better than the 936 so the car was much faster on the straight than the 936.
ec: If the car had better economy or let's say had run with a 2.6 instead of the 3.2, would that made a difference ?
Singer: Maybe, there's a chance.
ec: Because it sounds like it would have gone probably as fast as the 3.2 because the car was so aerodynamic.
Singer: In qualifying, you remember, we were pretty fast. We were enjoying the qualifying. We were the fastest car, but then one of the Renaults put a good lap together Jacky Ickx did a real big effort in the 936 to get pole. Moby Dick started third on the grid. I think, one second behind the Renault but Ickx was almost three seconds faster.
Really no one else could go faster.
ec: 1978 was my first year at Le Mans and the big story was how much that Renault had at stake and had to win. But it was the reaction from the crowd, that no one was prepared at all for anything quite like Moby Dick.
Singer: I suppose but it had it's problems during the race.
ec: The few races that Moby Dick did after Le Mans, it seemed that it broke while leading.
Singer: Right, a fan belt. Nothing significant.
ec: Had you started work on 935-007 for the '79 year. What changes would there have been for the next year's Moby Dick had you been able to continue?
Singer: Well, in these days it was time to start with ground effects which was very good. I think in '78 it was Andretti with a Lotus who was champion. So the ground effects was in clear in Formula One, aerodynamics is clearly another story. But the next step was, and the wind tunnel model still exists, to start Moby Dick with ground effects.
ec: I've seen the model and the shape of it, it looks like the regular Moby Dick.
Singer: The idea was to get a big air duct which means the engine and the rear compartment of the car. To get the air actually through the rear window.
ec: How would you have ducted it?
Singer: This project was stopped quite early but we did some fundamental tests just to know how we can get the ground effects working on this type of car.
ec: For your initial testing, was it a fifth scale model? Did it work?
Singer: Yes, it was a fifth scale model. At the beginning it was quite disappointing because the rear engine stopped all the air flow until we started to try to get the air flow out of the rear window. And then it came a little bit alive and then we stopped the project but it looked somehow promising. But I never know really if we would have done it or not. Then the next thing was how to get it through the regulations, but I think there would be a way somehow.
ec: You'd find a way. You've had a long career of that. The reason the project was stopped is purely financial because Martini had decided not to race. True ?
Singer: Martini had not decided and even in '78, we didn't run the whole series. So the racing came down slowly and it was quite logical that in '79 we were not supposed to run in any race series, so we sold a lot of 935 cars and we let the customers run. Then, I think, in April 1979 the idea came up, okay, let's run Le Mans and we take the 936s out of the museum and just run Le Mans. To run Moby Dick, it was clear because of the high fuel consumption, there was no development done so it was the same as the year before. It doesn't make sense to run Moby Dick again in Le Mans.
ec: But, ironically, because of what happened with both the 936s and the way things turned out, Moby Dick very well could have won in 1979.
Singer: Yes, sure it could.
ec: Another great what if.
Singer: But you never know.
ec: Another one of the great what ifs because Moby Dick was so far ahead of the development of the rest of the privateer 935s that there was still some work to catch up. Who gave the decision for the okay for Joest and Kremer to have build their own Moby Dick replicas?
Singer: That was not a big decision, they just copied Moby Dick.
ec: Was there limited factory help? I mean, obviously, you had to have kind of an okay to do this.
Singer: Not really. They didn't really ask. They didn't have the four valve engine so they put the normal air cooled engine in and they tried to get the best part out of what they could see they had not to ask for that. Joest and Kremer had asked about buying a car and we said no.
ec: But was there a decision made such as, no, we're not going to sell 935 Moby Dick replicas to customers ?
Singer: No, because of the engine.
ec: So it was purely based on just the motor?
Singer: Yes, at that stage we were not able to supply a lot of four valve engines and we knew that to get it in customer hands there had be done more development.
ec: When you look back it's been 20 years now since Moby Dick's victory at Silverstone, are you surprised that the car had such long staying power? It's virtually become kind of Porsche's racing cultural icon. Anybody who knows anything about racing knows that Porsche had built a car called Moby Dick.
Singer: Yes, but in those days, it was just different 935.
ec: But considering again how few races that it did, Moby Dick's influence was enormous and it has since become a legend.
Singer: Yes, this is the surprise. Actually it won only one race out of four. Not very impressive but I think it's the combination of the looks, it is really like different 935. And because of the engine, this was really a big step ahead and this makes the legend, I think.